Spotlight on tech solutions for solo and small law firms

Welcome to Legal Tech Matters, a Litera podcast dedicated to creating conversations about trends, technology and innovation for modern law firms and companies big and small.

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Adriana Linares

Welcome to another episode of LEGALTECH MATTERS. I'm Adriana Linares, one of the hosts for this wonderful podcast. And today I'm talking to Chris Kragthorpe. Did I say that right, Chris?

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Chris Kragthrope

You did it.

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Adriana Linares

It was really funny. I got an email from you where you said, Yeah, I carry half the letters of the alphabet in my last name. I thought that was clever, so I'm glad I got it right.

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Chris Kragthrope

Yeah, it makes paying bar tabs really easy. I can just tell somebody "K" and then about 20 other letters and they find me pretty quickly.

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Adriana Linares

That's hilarious. Well, thanks for joining me today. You actually work directly for Litera, which is, you know, the host and the producer of this podcast. Tell us a little bit about what you do for Litera.

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Chris Kragthrope

Yeah. So right now, I lead our sales teams selling into small legal. So, what we define a small law firm, which right now Litera is 60 attorneys and under but that really goes all the way down to solo practitioners and kind of everywhere in between. I've been doing that and working with that market specifically for about two and a half years.

I was really the first account executive and kind of salesperson specifically focused on that part of the legal market. And I've been able to build that team up with all the demand and all the great partners we've been able to find in that part of our business. And then also recently, just this year, also started leading part of our corporate legal functions.

So, the folks that are selling into in-house legal.

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Adriana Linares

That's a big difference between small and corporate. So, you know, it's like quite a divide, I would think, technically and those sorts of products you get and services you get to represent and talk about.

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Chris Kragthrope

So, in some ways I think that they certainly are. There's absolutely some differences, but I think in other ways there's definitely some similarities. I think where that similarity starts as those are parts of the market specifically that I think are really actively looking in a lot of cases for transformation and a lot of and are more forward-looking and forward-thinking within some of the things that they're doing.

So, yes, where we land on some of those conversations tends to be a little bit different. But where those conversations start and the desire to kind of improve and optimize, I hate that word. It's become a buzzword now, - tends to be actually pretty similar.

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Adriana Linares

Well, you know, let's be realistic. Even an attorney in the corner office of the largest law firm in the world sort of runs his or her law firm like a solo anyway. So, when you get down to the nitty gritty of actually practicing law, creating documents, managing relationships, dates, deadlines, details, and parties, then they're probably pretty similar even in the corporate environment.

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Chris Kragthrope

I think that's really true. And, you know, I think one thing that people ask me a lot is, well, tell me about small law firms. And one of the first things I say is people use small just kind of generally within our society and viewed as kind of a negative term, right? Like smaller means lesser means not as good.

But really, I think due to a lot of the things you're talking about really in legal small should probably be transposed for something more like focused. Yeah. A lot of what these a lot of what these attorneys and what these practitioners are, what these firms are doing, they're really similar to the kinds of things they're thinking about at some of those larger firms, especially on the in the actual practice of law.

They're just a little bit more focused on something particular whether that's a practice area, a niche within a practice area, a specific value that they feel like they can provide to clients by being a little bit more focused or sometimes a specific value that they think they can provide better to legal professionals being the people that they work with within their firm.

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Adriana Linares

Yeah, it's true. And I agree. And I've spent the bulk of my legal career and I'm not a lawyer I'm a legal technology consultant specifically helping solo small. And I'll even throw a mid-size firm in there. And I don't think there's anything negative about it because that's most attorneys.

And then back to what we were saying earlier, is even when you are part of a large firm, I've always said law firms are like kingdoms, and within those kingdoms are all these little fiefdoms and everyone's often doing their own thing. But back to Litera, which you mentioned this when we were in the green room, as I call it, before I hit record.

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Chris Kragthrope

Vega.

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Adriana Linares

You said, you know, Litera has historically been focused on bigger law firms, large law. And that's why I was happy to talk to you because I swim in the solo small firm, mid-size pool, and I'm really happy to hear that Litera has finally and I don't know how long they've had this division, this department, this focus geared themselves or, you know, sort of putting a little spotlight on that area.

So, can you tell us a little bit about maybe why that focus came in and then if there's any specific tools and services that you mostly love to talk to small firms about?

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Chris Kragthrope

Yeah, absolutely. So, I think where it makes sense to start that is probably with something that you already alluded to, and that is the amount of folks and the amount of attorneys that sit outside of what people think of when they think of the law firm, the traditional kind of big law, whether that be and Amlaw 100 or whatever it might be.

There are I read a stat last year and I'm sure it's probably changed a little bit since then, but there are more attorneys that practice at law firms with less than ten employees. So not ten attorneys, ten full time employees than there are that practice in the Am Law 250.

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Adriana Linares

That's right. 60% of all attorneys in this country work in firms that are ten or smaller.

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Chris Kragthrope

Exactly. So, when you look at that, I think what Litera saw smartly is that they were in some ways, I think, kind of underserving that group of people.

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Adriana Linares

Sure.

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Chris Kragthrope

I don't want to say leaving them out because we still had clients within those spaces, but it wasn't something we were doing with a ton of intent where we were really trying to focus. And I think you used a good word there. Shine a light on those folks. And try to better serve them with what we were already doing.

Because in the ways that we already talked about and especially, you know, in the areas that Litera has been so good at for 25 years and that's helped them capture, you know, what, 99% of the Am Law 100 that crazy statistic is really the practice of law and in a lot of ways and the core part of that has really been drafting for 25 years and a lot of those activities and a lot of those workflows and a lot of those processes are incredibly similar.

Now we've had to get a little bit more creative with our delivery model in order.

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Adriana Linares

But maybe a pricing model.

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Chris Kragthrope

Yeah, in order to exactly a lot of those sorts of things in order to meet people where they're at. But I think what Litera realized and wisely was that there was significant opportunity and that we had something to offer this part of the market and that we could do that better. And I've been lucky to be a part of that for, gosh, I guess three years now altogether.

My three-year anniversary kind of working in this part of the market was actually last week and It's been a blast because everything he does think of Litera as, you know, Am Law 100 Am Law 250. What people don't realize is we work with 15,000 organizations globally and that goes all the way from. Yes, I mean all the names that show up on law.com and those emails we get every day but it goes all the way down to you know hundreds if not thousands of solo practitioners and really everybody in between.

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Adriana Linares

Oh, I love that. And I'm glad that this is happening because, you know, there are tons of products and services in the market or solos and smalls. It just seems like there's a lot of start-ups. So, it's really nice that a company like Litera, who has been around a long time in various machinations and is, is offering services and products with all their expertise, the experience, the global connections and again, experience and expertise that they have.

So, I think it's a great thing that Litera has done and continues to do. So, when it comes to providing services or products to them. What do you think are the top two or three or maybe you have more than that services that you think small firms should know about?

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Chris Kragthrope

Sure. If I were to think about it in terms of kind of larger cuts and where we spend most of our time talking to small firms, I would say still typically it's within our wheelhouse document drafting. So, all the way kind of, you know, from first draft to final delivery, whether that be templating, content re-use, proofreading, using some AI as a part of that to make it a little bit more efficient.

Obviously, the ones that most people are probably most familiar with, which is comparison, which as we talked about earlier, you know, a lot of people are familiar with Workshare, Compare. Some people are familiar with that going all the way back to Delta View. Yeah.

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Adriana Linares

Exactly.

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Chris Kragthrope

Everywhere in between and with all of those iterations. So that's still us. But those are still conversations we're having really frequently in addition to metadata security, you know, I would say those are areas as you look at comparison and metadata security, if we're not selling that into the Am Law 250 to just because they already bought it from us 15 or 20 years ago in most cases.

But there's a lot of ways that we've been able to make those solutions make more sense. For smaller firms, and they've been able to take advantage of a lot of those things that have really become table stakes for a lot of those places that they've come from or in some cases or their competitors in some niche areas where they're trying to punch above their weight in ways that they're certainly equipped to do from a legal knowledge and a skill standpoint.

So, we just try to equip them a little bit better with tools so they can spend more time leveraging that knowledge and that skill. I'd say the other areas outside of drafting probably lie most heavily in terms of the conversations we're having in the transaction management space, whether that be kind of full end to end transaction management with things like checklists, signature pages or closing binders, but also a little bit in the AI due diligence space.

So, we started to have more conversations since our Kira acquisition with small firms about how they can take advantage of some of that ability a little bit more holistically.

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Adriana Linares

Okay, let's go back a little bit and break down a couple of these topics so I can dig in a little bit deeper. First, I just want to let any listener know that on the litera.com homepage, if you scroll down just a little bit, you'll have placed some recordings of the webinars that you have done.

And specifically because I'm gonna ask you about the drafting tools. There's a great podcast. Ah, there's a great webinar that was done just this, oh, yesterday. But wait, let me just say that over because in the podcasting world that doesn't matter so directly on litera.com, there's some recordings of some webinars that have been done and the tools of the trade, how drafting technologies lead to better legal and business outcomes is one of them.

So, if our conversation about drafting technology inspires you to learn more, I encourage you to go and check out this webinar. So, in here, this webinar covered like the risks and challenges and the importance of proper drafting, using technology, being able to draft with accuracy, reducing risk. I love that one of the quotes in this on this page is I didn't go to word processing school, which I cannot tell you how often I hear that.

Can you tell us a little bit about the tools and the services that are available when it comes to thinking about being a better drafter?

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Chris Kragthrope

Yeah, absolutely. So, we talk a lot at Litera within the drafting space about wanting to really have tools and solutions that will accompany attorneys or other legal professionals that we work pretty significantly and substantially as well with paralegals, legal assistance, and other people kind of throughout that space. And most of them touch a document at the various points in kind of the cycle but really kind of being able to enable those folks from first draft, the final delivery.

So, what does that look like? You know, that starts with how are we sourcing a document? Where's it coming from? Are you opening up a Microsoft Word document? It's blank and typing it all in. At this point this is pretty rare.

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Adriana Linares

The old dup and revise lives on.

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Chris Kragthrope

Exactly. When I started here at Litera, my mentor at that time here internally was a former transactional attorney. And he joked that every single contract was really just to copy and paste a copy and saved as or copy pasted version of the Magna Carta just right now. It had just kept on getting duped and revised over and over and over and over again.

So, it's really putting people in a position to get to that first that first starting precedent a little bit faster, whether that be something that's a little bit more template-based or whether that's reusing prior work content, because we absolutely understand that those are things that people are able to do and then those things that they need to revise, in a lot of cases, a lot of that PII, a lot of the customer specific stuff, a lot of the matter specific stuff. Being able to point that out to them a little bit quicker, bring those things to their attention and put them in a position to make those changes quickly and efficiently rather than having to play the really fun kind of two screen Where's Waldo game?

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Adriana Linares

Oh yeah.

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Chris Kragthrope

Or trying to use control F and just hoping you didn't miss anything, which I think someone didn't. Exactly. Which I think is what most folks are doing. Yeah. From there, once you've got that first draft with, the next thing you usually has to do is go populate content, right? So content, that's going to be specific to this matter - more dupe and revise.

So, I'm starting with this. The starting thing that I grabbed from were usually my case recall or my deal recall from back in the day. That seems the most similar to this. But then I'm remembering the clause from five years ago or the clause from eight years ago and the clause that I used three weeks ago. And I'm going and pulling all of those things right and copying and pasting them in it.

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Adriana Linares

Be a colossal waste of time, exact money out the door, just goodbye profits.

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Chris Kragthrope

Frankenstein documents is what we like to call them. In addition to good-bye profits in addition to the time list, it's really frustrating. You bring those things. First of all, it takes time to find them, but then you bring those things in and what usually happens, you screw up the formatting you bring in.

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Adriana Linares

Oh, for sure.

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Chris Kragthrope

And those corrupt like it just makes Word really, really difficult to deal with. I think that's if you look at drafting at Litera from an overarching standpoint, I think a lot of it, and you'll hear me to come back to this and we continue to discuss it really has to do with making Word work better for yeah. Because Microsoft says it's got 25,000 native functions.

You can do almost anything you want with it, but when you build something for everyone, you build it for no one particularly. This obviously wasn't built specifically for the legal industry, but most lawyers are spending 60% of their day in that platform in some way, shape or form. And like you said earlier, they didn't go to a word processing school, right?

They didn't even go to Microsoft Word school. No one wants to be banging their head against a keyboard for a living, especially with the specialized knowledge that they have and that they enjoy using to the benefit of their clients.

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Adriana Linares

I mean, it's true. Look, I've been doing this for 24 years. I am still teaching the exact same - no lie, the exact same basic things in Microsoft Word that I was teaching 25 years ago. So, it's painful, but, you know, it's reality. And so, I totally hear you.

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Chris Kragthrope

Well, the good thing is at least you're just teaching it in Word instead. Of teaching it in Word and WordPerfect.

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Adriana Linares

Yeah. Although guess who still does a life after reveal code session every once in a while.

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Chris Kragthrope

I believe it.

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Adriana Linares

Oh yeah. And it's popular, let me tell you.

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Chris Kragthrope

I walked into a firm two years ago that I won't name where I saw a working typewriter sitting on a desk.

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Adriana Linares

Yeah. It's crazy. So, if I'm an attorney listening to this and I want to learn more about these tools as one of my Googling Litera drafting tools, is there a specific name of the features? Like, what am I looking for?

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Chris Kragthrope

Yeah, I think starting in drafting, certainly valuable. Do we actually have a web page as part of our website that is geared specifically towards our small and mid-sized law firm customers. So, the domain, the whole domain, it's Litera dot com customers, backslash, small dash, mid dash sized. Okay. But if you go ahead and Google Litera small law firms, it should get you there.

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Adriana Linares

Yeah. And it does. It does. So perfect. Okay. So, the other sort of area that you talked about that I want to touch on briefly is transaction so obviously, you know, I feel like it's a 50-50 split and legal whether you're a transactional or litigator litigating attorney. So, when it comes to transactional services, products and features that will help attorneys do that better.

Tell us a little bit about that.

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Chris Kragthrope

Well, I think a lot of that does still start with drafting. Yeah, I agree. Being able to get that document to a point where you want to get it to which at that point it starts changing hands and you're starting to do some of those deals with.

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Adriana Linares

Collaborating.

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Chris Kragthrope

Exactly whatever that document might be. So really what we're trying to do in those spaces is the transaction management process is really labor intensive. And it's a ton of drudgery, and especially for small and mid-sized firms that don't have that army of associates or that army of legal support staff, it becomes difficult for attorneys to be able to focus on what they want to focus on while still spending time on updating manual checklists, creating signature pages, going in, chasing after signature pages, being able to be prepared for status calls and update calls, being able to communicate that stuff with clients effectively in an up to the minute fashion, and then putting together closing books and all of those things really at the end of the process. So, if you look at what we call the Litera Transact, which used to be Doxley, which Haley Altman, who still had part of our session, pretty much founded because she got tired of doing all that work as an associate back in the day.

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Adriana Linares

Hashtag Girl Power.

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Chris Kragthrope

Yeah, exactly. Love Haley. So that's really kind of what I would say. The main focus of our transaction management kind of effort is on that front and it really comes down, comes back to, in my opinion, a lot of what I talked about at the beginning. These aren't lesser firms, they're more focused firms. So, let's try to free people up to focus more on what it is that is the very reason that they're doing what they're doing, whether that's, you know, more personalized client service, you know, that more personal touch, rather than being a number at one of those big firms, whether that's deeper integration into a client's business, whether that's more creative or customized fee structures, obviously, AFAs are a really big deal right now, or whether that's also the value that they're able to provide to the people that they're working with. If you're running a firm, you know, more work-life balance, more time spent on interesting legal problems.

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Adriana Linares

That's what they all want.

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Chris Kragthrope

Exactly. So. So really try to remove some of those and administative manual tasks that now can be automated, especially at places where you don't have the people to throw at those problems, to allow people to focus more on that and to double down on the reasons why they're doing those things in the very first place. Yeah. The other area that comes into play pretty heavily in transactions is AI due diligence.

That's a newer area for us from our acquisition of Kira. Again, another former attorney – Noah Waisberg - and got tired of doing that sort of work - thought there was a better way to do it and went out and proved it, right?

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Adriana Linares

Built it, yeah, exactly.

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Chris Kragthrope

But that process is really work intensive and is typically an area where firms and as a result, clients leave themselves open to a lot of risk because there's not nearly enough time to do all of the due diligence you'd like to do as part of the transaction. So, help us. So really, I guess the theory would be allow us to help you do that a little bit better. Bring to your attention the things that need to be brought to your attention so you can use the great knowledge that you have, the legal skill and expertise that you've built, the experience that you have to help your clients in the way that you really want to help them. The reasons why you went to law school, right? Why you got into this in the first place rather than spending a whole bunch of time digging in the sandbox trying to find that rock you need to look at.

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Adriana Linares

Right. Well, you just mentioned mitigating risk. And I think one of the easiest ways that attorneys can mitigate risk is to manage metadata. So, take a minute and just tell us what metadata means in the document properties world, not in the litigation and eDiscovery process. I always feel like I have to say that we're talking about metadata in your documents, not metadata when it comes to a complex eDiscovery case. But start there and then tell us about the tools that Litera has for that.

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Chris Kragthrope

Yeah. So, when you think about metadata, most a lot of people don't understand the lawyers are becoming better and better educated about the things that live in your documents. Yeah.

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Adriana Linares

And there's more outside your document that are part of your document.

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Chris Kragthrope

Correct. But really, as a result, yeah. I guess when I say lives in lives as a part of is probably a better way to put it. But there's so much information, whether it be authorship, origin, timestamps, potentially specific kind of PII related to you or related to your client that exists within a lot of these documents. I remember the first time somebody popped open and it's really simple if you're listening to this, just pop open Microsoft Word, right-click on a file, click properties, start clicking on those tabs.

You'll be amazed at what you can see really quickly. And that is really very much just the tip of the iceberg of what somebody who actually knows what they're doing is able to find. So, what metadata really means to me, I think in the law firm context is being able to send what you want when you want but also the risk mitigation part of that is being able to not send.

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Adriana Linares

Exactly.

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Chris Kragthrope

When you don't want to. So, yes, that's a space we've been engaged in for a long time and something that certainly I think become table stakes for those larger firms that have kind of security and risk managers. Their overall process. But something that's certainly becoming in this kind of, you know, really tech forward and digital world that we live in. I can't remember the last time I held a physical piece of paper in relation to a lot of this.

It's all coming in distributed in this way. And if it is a physical piece of paper, I'm holding, it's something I'm printing out from something someone sent me. It's not right. It's delivered to me anymore. I so being able to control what's coming along with that, to protect yourself and to protect your clients certainly has a ton of value.

I mean, I could tell you some horror stories about people who, you know, have really put firms and their own careers in really tough situations. Yeah, in many ways without knowing it. And really almost, you would think at no fault of their own. And there's some ways that we can help solve that.

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Adriana Linares

And you have very good tools that just install let you know, hey, you're about to send this document out. Might have some metadata in it. I want to say this just for listeners because I do a lot of training on metadata and understanding your ethical responsibilities with your Word and PDF files. It's a session. I do a lot of attorneys believe that just by converting a Word document or Excel PowerPoint to PDF, you no longer have metadata issues with those documents.

Chris and I are here to tell you that is not true. A metadata will easily move from an office file to a PDF. So, you really do want to become educated and informed about removing it or being able to create documents without ever having in it, which Chris kind of goes back to your very first point that you made, which is back to drafting and being able to draft from templates or forms that don't start with metadata.

Metadata tends to move around where we dupe and revise when we don't clean out the properties of a file before using it as a as an addition to our forms library. So, I think that's a really, really helpful, and important tool. I feel like in the world of affordability, when it comes to dealing and buying and paying for services and tools that are going to be at the bottom of the expense list, but worth more than anything, it's going to be metadata removal tools.

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Chris Kragthrope

I completely agree with that. I mean, if you look at it across the market and we're no exception, I mean, I think one of our most affordable tools, if you were to take everything that we sell across our entire portfolio, but definitely one of the most impactful and it's one of those things that like a lot of security solutions, it doesn't people don't view it as a problem until that problem.

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Adriana Linares

Until they have.

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Chris Kragthrope

Until that problem is six inches from their face. But at that point it is. But at that point and it's six inches from their face, it's a grizzly bear.

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Adriana Linares

Sometimes okay. The last thing I'm going to ask you about, which is just are so critically important to lawyers and specifically transactional attorneys, is comparing documents and a million years ago, Litera ate Delta View and attorneys wailed and cried and are still trying to figure out how to get it. So, can you talk to us a little bit about the comparison tools that are available?

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Chris Kragthrope

Yeah, absolutely. So, we still have folks using Workshare Compare..

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Adriana Linares

That's the new name. I shouldn't say new right. And a long time. Yeah, but that is the current name, right?

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Chris Kragthrope

So actually, we've come out with so as part of the acquisitions that Litera has done and in some ways become kind of, I guess you could say famous or infamous for depending on which way you look at it, at times we acquire companies that play in some of the same spaces that we do. Workshare was a good example.

We acquired Workshare almost exactly three years ago, acquired DocsCorp last year with compareDocs, which is some people were a little bit more familiar with kind of more over in EMEA and APAC, but certainly here in the U.S. as well, so we've actually released within the last year Litera Compare because we owned Changed Pro from legacy.

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Adriana Linares

Oh my gosh, that's three.

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Chris Kragthrope

Exactly. There's three right there. So, what we've really been able to do, we're working very hard to support people on the solutions that they're on and give them the appropriate kind of pathways to get them to the best of the best. And that's really what with Litera Compare is, and what we've been able to do. So, we have the benefit of feedbacks that we're able to gain from this 15,000 customer, 50,000 organization, customer base.

But we also have the benefit of really the three strongest pieces of IP for comparison within that within the legal space. Being DocsCorp, being Workshare and being legacy Litera. So, what we've been able to do is create what we're calling now Litera Compare, which is really kind of what we heard from people are a product team that's really like a two-year deep dive to really survey the market and say, Hey, what do you like some this, what do you like from this? What do you like from this and why? And then be able to build something that hopefully combines the best of the three of those into something that are our VP of Products sometimes jokes about it are like when all the transformers come together at the end.

00;29;36;25 - 00;30;00;10

Adriana Linares

Well, this has been incredibly helpful and I'm so glad that I can now point some of my solo and small firm practitioners to this podcast to hear about the stuff that Litera is offering for them. Do you suggest that if someone wants to learn more, they Google "Litera small firm" and just go from there? Or do you have a specific contact or any other information that we can share with everyone so they can learn more?

00;30;00;19 - 00;30;22;00

Chris Kragthrope

Yeah, absolutely. I think in terms of solo and independent research, that's a good place to start. But I'm happy to talk to anyone and everyone. I gain as much as I can from those conversations and love to hear from people in the market. I also have the benefit, as you talked about earlier, Adriana, of having a really weird last name.

Yeah, pretty much the easiest person ever to find on the Internet. So yeah, I'm happy. My email is Chris.Kragthorpe@Litera.com, and I'm the easiest person ever to find on LinkedIn because there's only one of me.

00;30;35;25 - 00;30;52;10

Adriana Linares

That's amazing because I have a pretty unique name and there are other Adriana Linares out there. Even on LinkedIn, but it's Chris with a C like you think it is. And it's Kragthorpe – exactly as it sounds except it starts with a K and an e at the end. I feel if you just got the Kragthorpe part, they would find you.

00;30;54;15 - 00;30;55;27

Chris Kragthrope

There you go. Yeah, I agree.

00;30;56;13 - 00;31;05;12

Adriana Linares

Well, this has been great Chris, thanks so much for having a chat with me and I hope everyone enjoyed another episode of Litera's LEGALTECH MATTERS. We'll see you next time. My name is Adriana Linares.

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