Welcome to LegalTech Matters, a Litera podcast dedicated to creating conversations about trends, technology and innovation for modern law firms and companies big and small.
00;00;14;07 - 00;00;42;06
Sherry Kappel
Welcome, everyone. My name is Sherry Kappel and I'm an Evangelist here at Litera. Today, I am privileged to have as a guest, Barry Solomon, the legal tech innovator and leader and my adored colleague. He is also Litera's VP of Advisors, Evangelist, and Sales Engineering. Today, our podcast theme is to welcome our audience into the third phase of legal tech and timing for this conversation can't be any better.
As our entire community readies itself for its preeminent annual tech conference, ILTACON. So, Barry let's get started before we dive into the various phases of legal tech. Would you tell us a bit about your background, including all of your various roles across this community?
00;01;01;13 - 00;01;28;25
Barry Solomon
Sure. Well, I started my career as a lawyer probably before you were born, Sherry. I was a lawyer at Sidley when actually lawyers didn't have computers at the time. So, I had a secretary with a typewriter at the time, and I remember requesting a computer from our firm's managing partner. And after a difficult conversation, he finally conceded.
And I was one of two lawyers to be issued the first computers at the firm. So that's when I fell in love with technology. And in fact, I brought in some technology to the firm, the one that I remember meeting with this entrepreneur who created a product called CompareRite. And I showed it to the computer committee.
We called it. And we brought that in. And it changed my life personally, but I couldn't get rid of the bug. And so, I left my practice to help found a software company. You'll know that today as Interaction because we sold it to Lexis. Years ago. Over a decade ago, my brother and I, over a summer, created the prototype of what we call the Address Book, but it grew into Interaction.
So, I spent a large part of my career there. It's a CRM solution that many law firms use. As I said, we sold that to Lexis, and I stayed on for three years. Just the first year to help migrate the Interaction to others at Lexis. And then I moved on and spent a little time at a company called Martindale Hubbell, where one of the challenges at that time was getting things off of books and online.
And also a big part of what Martindale Hubbell was doing at that time was launching and promoting a product called Lawyers.com, which is, you know, online finding of lawyers because there's kind of not just C2C, you know, a company, a company, but, you know, be B2B, but also B2C businesses to the consumers. And then I went back to well, actually, I wanted to go back to a law firm as a CMO but I know the way law firms work, and they weren't going to take me as a CMO if I never had CMO in my title.
So, I joined a little software company called Microsystems, and that's where I met you for this. I met you for the first time. I had known about you, Sherry, through my brother who worked with you. But so, I was CMO at Microsystems. After several years there, I was offered the position of CMO at Sidley Austin, and I was CMO for about seven years.
Still love technology. So, one of the things that I tried to do is implement a solution to help us manage experience across the firm. I couldn't find the right product and the firm didn't have an appetite to build a custom solution. So, I persuaded some of the geniuses behind Interaction Nate Feinberg and Brad Palmer to build a product that was called Foundation.
So, I was a Foundation customer. After about four years, I joined Nate and Brad, and we helped grow and sell that to Litera, which brings me here to Litera.
00;04;41;24 - 00;05;11;00
Sherry Kappel
Barry, I'm having like serial experiences. Remember that old show, Walter Cronkite, and you were there. I feel as if there are so many junctures in that where I feel like I was there. I have I want to go back to your comment about creating your Interaction application. Like what? What was the genesis for that idea? Why? Why did that become something that you spent some focused time on? Always fascinated with those origin stories about innovations.
00;05;14;27 - 00;05;38;08
Barry Solomon
Well, you got to remember when I was practicing law, I had a front row seat of how lawyers brought in business. And if you want to look at you know, we often look at technology. I love to look at technology, but you got to look at clients of firms. And when I first started practicing law, the pendulum was way over where the power was in the law firm's hands.
Right. Because this was before the Internet, I remember. Right. And they used to say the way law firms did marketing was by answering the phone on the third ring instead of the fourth ring. Right. There was just so the business would come to them. Well, the pendulum started to shift, and buyers of legal services became more sophisticated. And what I was observing at Sidley was a lot of firms were bringing their lawyers in closer contact with their clients because relationships became key to keeping clients more loyal as they became more sophisticated.
So, if you think about it, when I first started, the most important thing to be profitable was billing time. So, what was the big first technology wave within law firms? It was time and billing systems, but then when the pendulum swung and clients started to care more about relationships, you know, we're going to give the business to the firm.
We have the closest relationship with, I predicted, and it turned out to be true. There would be a wave of relationship management software and hence, you know, CRM became a big pillar within law firms.
00;06;56;10 - 00;07;15;11
Sherry Kappel
That's that is such a great story. I also recall that you had a one of the stories you told was about, you know, word processing and in fact, someone we all know in this community you worked with. So, you tell that story to our audience.
00;07;15;15 - 00;07;40;04
Barry Solomon
Yeah. Well, this was back in the day when lawyers didn't have a computer and our secretaries used carbon paper. Right. So, I used to do like you couldn't even send a document to word processing unless it was at least seven pages long. And I did a lot of three- or four-page opinion letters. So, I had this fake exhibit, which was five pages.
And so, I ended up the word processing group would always make fun of me. And the head of our New York word processing was Joy, Joy Heath at the time. And so, whenever I would, I was based in Chicago, but I would frequently go to New York to do a deal. And I was in New York for several weeks working on a deal I was working over the weekend with the partner, and she told me we needed to modify a bunch of these agreements.
I went to word processing there was nobody there. They weren't on duty. So, I called Joy at home in a panic, and she goes, what do you want to do? I said, I could do it, I think if you walk me through it. So, she showed me how to turn on this humongous, centralized word processing computer and I think I'm the first - I'm certainly the first lawyer at Sidley to have ever done that.
May I'm the only one because this predates, you know, PCs and I made the changes, printed it out, and we sent it out. So, Joy, it has a near and dear place in my heart.
00;08;53;03 - 00;09;23;17
Sherry Kappel
To teach. To teach is to touch a life forever. And she absolutely did that. I actually think I should reword my question. It's the first brush with technology adoption that you had. That's very awesome. So, you have clearly been a mainstay in the legal community for such a long time, Barry. And I think we would love to know what it about this community is and about this technology that's focused on this community that keeps you engaged and working and constantly innovating.
But yeah, most about it.
00;09;25;19 - 00;09;53;06
Barry Solomon
Well, I mean, I did go to law school, and I practice law, and so I do. And I loved the law. I mean, I still do, you know, and I believe in our legal system. But I also think a lot of innovation happens when you bring two things together and you do something special with it. You know, it's kind of like you know, performing arts and Circus brings Cirque du Soleil.
I don't know what other examples, but, you know, a lot of innovation happens when you bring in two things that are pretty well-established. Well, what's really fun to me is I'm not that smart, but I'm smart enough to look at what's happened before to predict what's going to happen and legal. And the reason is, is that the intersection of legal and technology I find fascinating but it's pretty easy to know what's happening legal because you just look at what's happening outside of legal - ten years ago.
And so, I've I felt like it's been so much fun to ride that wave over and over again. And, you know, frankly, I'm looking at the next three to five years as another wave like this. We're going to look back and we'll get to that. But to me, riding a wave in technology when you can kind of see, you know, with this, it's like that day when I first saw CompareRite.
And I said, oh, my gosh, I'm not going to have to spend hours with red ink on my hands when I go home because of this technology. You know, each step of the way, I feel like it's so much fun to observe technology. That's why I love going to ILTA, because we're in a front row seat to see lives being improved.
You know, and that's what it's all about. So that's what I like is that intersection of technology and the practice of law.
00;11;25;22 - 00;11;34;25
Sherry Kappel
So, speaking of ILTACON, when did you attend your first ILTACON conference and were the key issues that they discussed at the time?
00;11;35;10 - 00;12;11;25
Barry Solomon
Okay. You're taxing my memory. So, before it was called ILTA was called LawNet and before LawNet, it was called The Slug. Right, for the VS voice operating system of WANG and the user groups of The Slug when it was called that, I think this was in the early nineties, maybe it was 1992-93. I was at Sidley, I was either absolutely or just left and the technology, the CIO at the time wanted to host - was hosting that year.
They were responsible for that, and they asked me for help and so that would be the first one I went to. I ended up reaching out to another lawyer who was interested in technology. He was the managing partner of Kirkland, and that was at the time a guy named Fred Bartlett. And I enlisted Fred to speak at this particular conference.
But it was much smaller than what ILTA is today.
00;12;40;05 - 00;13;05;27
Sherry Kappel
Well, that that is a great story. And once again, I feel as if you not only innovated tech, you innovated that relationship and rapport between tech and the lawyers. So well done. And we've all been following in your footsteps since. So Barry. This brings us to a blog post that you recently published about welcoming our audience to the third phase of legal technology.
But tell us what. What is the first phase? What happened in the first phase?
00;13;11;26 - 00;13;40;16
Barry Solomon
Yeah, we've been talking about it. The first phase is back when there was centralized word processing. Right back when there was centralized time and billing, you know, lots of technology. But it really wasn't improving the life of lawyers. That was phase one. Being a lawyer, frankly, was drudgery, very often for an associate at least. And it wasn't just I mean, on all sides, right?
I mean, this predates a lot of litigation support technology, discovery technology and the like. So that's phase one.
00;13;48;28 - 00;13;55;03
Sherry Kappel
So, phase one, that technology was behind a curtain for all of you. So, then what happened in the second phase?
00;13;55;24 - 00;14;26;25
Barry Solomon
Well, a lot of lawyers left their practice to try to reduce the drudgery, and they created great products. And it wasn't just lawyers. I mean, you know Tom O' Sullivan, right. You worked to get your part of the story, too. And this was really a success story. This was, hey, how do we make things better? How do we improve the life of lawyers and others within law firm through technology?
And so, you know, this is kind of the phase of point solutions, a lot of solutions solving discrete problems throughout a firm and that kind of is where many of us are today. I think we're in five years, we'll look back and realize that we're actually right in the middle of a paradigm shift. And this is, you know, kind of kind of brings us to where we are today.
00;14;57;07 - 00;15;23;12
Sherry Kappel
And I think that that second phase is notable, too. Barry because in some ways it started those point solutions you speak off started as these utilities, right? They weren't really all that friendly, but they actually did a job, and they were like utilities. But somewhere, you're right, they started moving toward becoming much more human centric and lawyer centric and all of that.
So, is that where we are in terms of what's coming in this third phase?
00;15;29;05 - 00;15;59;16
Barry Solomon
Yeah, but even more, I believe that what's happened in the second phase is we've solved some problems, but we've created new challenges. Right? The new challenges are that we have these silos. We have these silos of solutions, silos of data. So, you may end up entering the same information multiple times a refined need information or a report or need to gain insight.
I may need to go to several sources in order to pull that together. So, the third phase is about breaking down those silos. It's about pulling together information. It is, you know, creating an ecosystem that works well together. And I think that a lot of, you know, legal technology professionals within law firms are doing this, but they're somewhat hampered by so many point solutions that are discrete.
And there's a need to make sense of all of that. And that's really what the third phase is all about.
00;16;45;04 - 00;16;48;24
Sherry Kappel
And what excites you most about that third phase?
00;16;49;24 - 00;17;09;24
Barry Solomon
Well, it's the same thing that excited me when I saw that Interaction and was going to solve real problems. But kind of not everybody knew it yet. And it was what excited me about Foundation when I knew this was a huge problem. And, you know, it was before we grew to where we are today with over half of the Am Law firms.
What's exciting to me, though, it's not just that this is another wave of adoption that we're right at the beginning of. So, the next three, five, seven years is going to be a lot of fun. It's also that it's never really been done at this scale. I mean, we're talking about because in the past you were looking at a single development team and almost always a single stakeholder or a few stakeholders using the technology.
What we're talking about now is much bigger than that. It's an ecosystem, right? You know that the. And so, I find it fascinating and exciting because it's very much like the waves we've ridden in the past, you know, with things like DocXtools, Interaction, Foundation, you know, Clocktimizer - however it is on a much grander scale.
00;18;11;10 - 00;18;31;18
Sherry Kappel
Well, I I'm excited alongside you and in entering and welcoming ourselves to the third phase. So, I want to ask now if we sort of transition to wrapping up here, Barry, what is it that you're looking forward to most at ILTACON in 2022?
00;18;32;05 - 00;18;56;17
Barry Solomon
Oh, I mean, getting together with people first, of course. I mean, I was so disappointed to not be able to do that. I've been starting to do that. There's so many firsts. You know, my first trip to New York, my first trip to the West Coast, my first in person meeting at a law firm. Last year wasn't the same.
This is going to be a lot of people, and I'm just looking forward to getting together so that's probably top of my list.
00;19;05;23 - 00;19;25;21
Sherry Kappel
I, I termed it it's going to be like a brand-new page, right? It's like we're going to almost rediscover ILTACON all over again. So, with that, I'm curious what objectives do you have for Litera and your specific team for the ILTACON conference?
00;19;26;08 - 00;19;54;07
Barry Solomon
Well, I think a big part is introducing the new leadership team I think that Litera has done an amazing job, Avaneesh has been our CEO for years and brought us to where we are today. He's now part of the board, but we've brought in a new CEO, Sheryl, and she is brought a new team that, you know, executive team.
And I believe that's the exact right team to lead the charge with Litera's ability to partner with law firms to deliver this this ecosystem in the months and years ahead.
00;20;10;06 - 00;20;39;21
Sherry Kappel
And the spectrum of, you know, the practice of law through to the business of law, it is so exciting. So Barry, my final question, I want to go back to something I said at the beginning. You are such a legal tech innovator and leader. So, what sessions or events or experiences would you recommend attendees take best advantage of to set them on the right career course going into the rest of this year?
And the years ahead?
00;20;41;19 - 00;20;50;11
Barry Solomon
Oh, there's so many. It's like, do you love your children? I love them all, but I can't list them all. Can I list four? Is that too many?
00;20;50;22 - 00;20;51;03
Sherry Kappel
Sure
00;20;51;04 - 00;20;51;20
Barry Solomon
Okay.
00;20;51;20 - 00;20;52;11
Sherry Kappel
I'll do It quickly.
00;20;53;10 - 00;21;16;19
Barry Solomon
The first thing it kind of relates to what we were just talking about. Sheryl is presenting a kind of state of the state of Litera. This is on, I believe it's Monday at 1:45pm. And you know, like I said, although she's not from legal, she's exactly the right leader in my judgment, based upon what is necessary for this type of transformation.
Like I said, legal tends to do things a decade after it's been done in corporate America. Well, guess what? She's done this in corporate America. And I think that that's kind of a coming out party in a sense. But substantively, there's a session on selecting third party information, governance solutions and you know, as we move into this third phase, breaking down silos of data in among people is so important.
And information governance is key to that. Right. You take you as you break down silos, it's like, okay, who owns this piece of data or what is this taxonomy as a standard for the firm? So that session, another session is just fun. I love innovation. So, hearing about AI, there's a session on evaluating AI and machine learning models.
I think that looks interesting. And then finally, I have a former colleague. I worked with him at Sidley Austin. He's now the chief knowledge officer at McDermott Will and Emery. He has a session where he's presenting how the firm uses technology to support their diversity and inclusion initiatives. And I think it's called something like counteracting bias, which I think is going to be really interesting.
00;22;40;11 - 00;22;59;18
Sherry Kappel
And I saw that, too. And I feel like that session, Barry, it does this sweep from the business of law to the practice of law and throws technology and data in in the middle, it's completely going to be riveting. I agree with you so much. Well, I hope I get to sit next to you at that session.
It would be great. But Barry, I can't thank you enough for joining us on today's podcast. LEGALTECH MATTERS. Appreciate all that you have done and will be doing at ILTACON this year. Thank you very much for your time today.
00;23;18;21 - 00;23;24;09
Barry Solomon
Thank you, Sherry. A mutual admiration society. So, you and I'll see you at ILTA.
00;23;25;10 - 00;23;27;16
Sherry Kappel
Definitely. Barry, thank you.
Thank you for listening to Legal Tech Matters. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
