Caroline Hill, Editor-in-Chief for Legal IT Insider, talks with four leading experts in the delivery of training to legal professionals globally. They discuss training as a career path for women; what issues law firms face and what they are doing right; how training can be leveraged as a competitive advantage; and whether firms can measure ROI when evaluating training. Read transcript
An Insider Look into Legal Tech TrainingOn Fri 24 Feb 2023
Meet Our Host and Guests
Editor-in-Chief Legal IT Insider
Caroline Hill is a former lawyer in the city. She has been a senior reporter at Legal Week, news editor at Legal Business, and took over as editor of the Orange Rag in 2014/15.
Bonnie L. Beuth
Learning And Development Specialist FordHarrison
Bonnie is an instructional designer and workflow trainer. She contributes extensive technical expertise combined with over 20 years of business knowledge and is a Founding Member, Chairman of the Board for LTC4™.
Technology Training Manager Squire Patton Boggs
Rachel Baiden is the Global Technology Training Manager for Squire Patton Boggs and has many years of experience in the technology training industry. Rachel is one of the founding members of LTC4™ and serves on the board of directors.
Consultant - Technology Skills at Humber Associates
Joanne has more than 25 years of experience consulting and delivering skills improvement for professional services organizations. She also works with LTC4™ to promote technology skills improvement across the legal industry globally.
Managing Director at iTrain Legal
Dorigen is the founder and Managing Director of iTrain Legal, a leading provider of IT Training and Change Management services to legal and accountancy firms.
Welcome to LEGALTECH MATTERS, a Litera podcast dedicated to creating conversations about trends, technology and innovation for modern law firms and companies big and small.
00:00:13:20 - 00:00:42:20
Hi, everyone, and welcome to Legal Tech Matters. My latest podcast, I'm Caroline Hill. Legal Tech Insider editor. And I am joined today by four experts in training. I am joined by Joanne Humber from Humber Associates. Hi, Jo. Hi.
I'm joined by Rachel Baiden from Squire Patton Boggs. Hi, Rachel. Hi.
Bonnie Beuth, who is from Ford Harrison. Hi, Bonnie.
And last but not least, Dorigen Sykes, who is from iTrain Legal, hi Dorigen.
I am so grateful for you joining me. I would normally ask you to introduce yourselves, but because there are a few of us and we've got so much to get through. I'm going to run through an introduction of each of you to everyone listening in. Thank you so much for joining us. My panel today really are some of the leading legal experts in training.
And we're going to be talking about both training as a career for women in STEM and gaining a little bit of insight into how my panelists got to where they are today. But we're also going to be leveraging that insights into what law firms are doing well and what they're doing not so well in terms of training.
So first up, so Jo, as I said, is from Humber Associates. Jo is the marketing consultant for legal industry training and proficiency for the legal technology core competencies Certification Coalition. I did it. Otherwise better known as LTC4. And you'll see, Jo, all of the confidence since Jo is a really well-known figure and based on the industry, she's over 25 years of experience of training. It's a long time. And that's just that's across professional services organizations, isn't it?
That's legal, finance and property. Though I know you best from legal. Bonnie is, as I said, from Ford Harrison. Bonnie now has changed the title. She is the learning and development specialist. Bonnie is a founding member of LTC4. She's currently board chair and U.S. treasurer. And at Ford Harrison, Bonnie manages the design and delivery of courses to support key technology initiatives.
Consistently helps to reduce disruption when the firm’s rolling out new applications across its many offices. Rachel Baiden from Squire Patton Boggs. Rachel is the global technology training manager. She has over 20 years of experience in the tech training industry. She's also a founding member of LTC4. She's also on the board of directors and is U.K. treasurer, And at Squire Patton Boggs, Rachel's accountable for the strategy and leadership of the legal tech training team, as well as ensuring that lawyers and staff have the technology skills to do their jobs and practice in an efficient manner. And Dorigen and everyone on my panel is a very well-known face at conferences. So we're going to have hung out at many conferences. And she's founder and managing director of iTrain Legal, which many of you will know is a leading provider of I.T. training and change management services to legal.
And they work with LTC4, but also some of the most prominent legal software suppliers. Thank you so much to everyone for joining me. I'm going to hand over to you in a second to talk about yourselves, which is the most important bit. But I just wanted to. For people listening in, it really does have three parts. So, we're going to talk about training as a career, particularly for women in STEM, where we think that it's a really excellent career.
My panel is going to talk to you about why that is. We're going to talk about the issues that firms are facing and really delve into some of the insights that perhaps some of the mistakes and then how they're getting things right and how actually training can be a massive opportunity. And we're going to look a little bit about some of the return on investments that they can see if they do it right over to you really to talk about your background.
So I want to understand, you've obviously been doing this a really long time, and I know all of you feel really passionately about training and how is a great career for women as took perhaps start with Jo again if we in the same order Jo. Talk to me a little bit about your career, how you ended up where you are now.
00:04:09:08 - 00:04:32:22
I started actually by setting up training events in my local town long time ago, and it was business skilled and then increasingly people were asking for technology skills as a computer started to be introduced into offices. And my first project was a law firm in my lucky town. We wanted all of our people to be trained how she needed a computer, and that really was where it started.
And ever since then, more and more work has been on in the media industry. But it also involved me working for corporate but instrumenting on iManage issue to happen. So I did a lot of projects like that. Now I've been to around all firms and the professional services firm submit train projects. You know, I.
00:04:54:21 - 00:05:18:12
We started out as a legal assistant and in a helpdesk for a law firm, and I was working my way through school, getting my computer information systems degree and, you know, I took the usual path when I graduated from college, I went to work for Andersen. I was a business analyst. I did some application development. I went on to a couple of other companies where I managed financial applications.
And, you know, companies go out of business and I.T. departments get eliminated. And, you know, when that happened to me the second time, I thought, well, I really wanted to combine my legal experience with my IT experience. So, I started looking for opportunities. And a recruiter that I was working with actually told me about Ford Harrison because the CIO at the time said he really wanted somebody who could come in, who could implement their learning management system and really kind of make the role their own.
And that was how I merged both my legal and technical experience, and that's really been very beneficial.
00:06:02:07 - 00:06:04:16
Okay. Thank you. And Rachel.
00:06:05:23 - 00:06:30:06
Well, yeah, mine's a bit of a different story. I was studying media at college and I thought I was going to journalism. That was my thing that I want to do. When I've finished college, I took up an administration job and it was an NBQ, so I was just hearing from office admin, and I happened to see an ad at the time and it obviously wasn't online.
This was back in 98, I think for a post for a I.T. train, and this was just for a training provide. And at the time I had in my head, right, I want to go and live in London. So I was just just turned 19 when I had my first interview in London for a trading provider. And my dad took me on the bus because we couldn't even afford the train at that time.
And I obviously just had the aptitude that he shared because we said we couldn't believe that somebody had come in and we delivered that way with no formal background. So that's how I started, just as a trader. And we were trading all public and private sector and I started getting more established in, in that career. I just had this thing that I want to go in house because so much truth training, you don't see the benefit because she trained people for a day or two days and then they go back and never see them again unless they come up with a course.
So I started looking at posts and I really fancy working in legal. Don't ask me why. It just sounded a really interesting area and it's a working house. I did get many redundant and then at that point I did a little bit of contracting, but it really wasn't for me. It can be quite lucrative. That just wasn't for me.
And then at that point I saw a role for a firm called Hammonds, and that was back in 2004. And then that's when I went in-house. And since then my careers took off. But that's how I've started it.
00:07:58:00 - 00:08:03:02
It's true. And do again. I'm going to come when she first next time, do again. Tell me about.
Well, before I entered legal IT at a lot of different things. I oddly did a drama degree and then I did my postgraduate diploma in law, so I was kind of heading down the legal route, but for various reasons I decided it wasn't for me and I ended up in technology. And so interestingly, the four of us are all coming to a different angle.
I'm actually from the tea of STEM, so I became techie. I worked in helpdesk, so many technical support and instead of management problem management, I was very focused on the technical side. But what I found was the part I loved was when somebody that you were trying to explain something to really got it and actually really helped them with what they were trying to achieve in their job.
And that satisfaction from being able to help somebody with technology to achieve something that they needed to achieve. It was what made my job really worthwhile. And funnily enough, it's not what we look for in trainers is that joy in helping to get to that light bulb moment, which is what drew me into I.T. training as opposed to any of the past technologies.
And when I got the opportunity, I was in Australia and back to the UK, I saw an advert for DWF as their IT trainer and I thought, okay, let's give that a bash. But the reason why I picked a law firm is quite mercenary. They were paying more than anybody else. So, I thought, Let's give this a go. And I got, I got lumped with the three projects at DWF, which was quite a baptism of fire.
But they're saying you either sink or swim. And I just love that. And the rest is history in some ways, say like Rachel. I made my way through. And years later, when I have the opportunity, I was able to start my own business.
00:09:43:08 - 00:10:02:08
I do think it's interesting to look at the women and STEM angle particularly is obviously women, but also because we want to find as many opportunities to bring more women into the sector. I'm going to talk to you about what skills newcomers
need, but I'd also like to reflect on what you just said, Dorigen, about the communication skills.
Is there something about training that do you think lends itself particularly towards women? I don't.
00:10:07:11 - 00:10:35:24
Not necessarily know. I mean, that there is a there is a higher proportion of women in training, particularly compared to any other type of technology based role, I suppose. But when we recruit, obviously we're not interested in the gender of somebody, but we tend to find that we're coming up with a 50/50 blend, really, and our male trainers are just as proficient and passionate and interested in helping people to achieve what they want to achieve with technology.
So I don't I do think it's perceived that way though, and I think that's why we tend to have that bias towards females at an IT training level. But then as with so many different industries, the women aren't always brought up to given the opportunities at high levels to, to progress that career. I suppose So in the same way the secretarial workforce is often predominantly female, we don't necessarily see them rising into more managerial positions, all or different roles within organizations.
00:11:07:22 - 00:11:25:15
Okay, so what do newcomers need in terms of aptitude that could be given that I've just seen during an interview or anybody for people listening in thinking, Oh, hey, you know, could this could be something for me and we're going to come on to talk about why this is training is more important than ever. And really it should be a growing role.
But so for anyone listening and thinking, well, hey, this might be for me, to what skills would you say newcomers need?
00:11:30:21 - 00:11:50:24
They need to be passionate about technology and about helping people to achieve with technology. We'd like to see that lights in their eyes, that light bulb moment, right? You know, you want to help somebody and tell that you have helped them, but they need they need to love technology as well, really. And look what it can do. They need to have an aptitude, have a had ability to learn quickly.
The communication is so important. You need to listen, really listen and understand what people are trying to achieve. And you need to be a little bit of a translator. So you need to be able to understand what's happening on the technical side, translate that back to the users. And the same way you need to understand what they're saying and feed that back in so that systems can be configured and designed in the way that people need to use.
It's so much more than just training role.
00:12:17:19 - 00:12:43:05
I'm actually going to come to Bonnie for something slightly different. Talk to you about the training isn't just training, as it were, so you really need to be aware of the business need. And in terms of what training achieves that, people are always training teaches me up to turn things on that have been naturally body talk to me about how the role you must be to respond to business needs and what the benefit might be of training.
00:12:44:08 - 00:13:10:17
Well, and this really relates a lot too, to what Dorigen was just saying about pulling people into the career as well. You know, I noticed when I was offered this position at Fort Harrison, I really had to think about whether I wanted to take my career in that direction. And I started thinking about the fact that even as a business analyst and even as an application developer and a financial systems person, I was always educating somebody else.
And so when it comes to skill sets coming in, having a global business understanding and having an understanding of how technology impacts your users is a skill that people from a number of different backgrounds, as we've seen today, can leverage that. Ultimately, you have to know the best way to be effective and to give a return on investment and to expand your career really in legal I.T. training or I.T. training in any industry is that you have to understand the business and have that training answer those business needs.
You know, one of the biggest business needs is to protect securities. And so it's important, no matter what you're teaching, that you take all of that into consideration. So it isn't just somebody handing you a curriculum and saying, okay, train this. It's as a trainer, you have to have an understanding of how the business operates and to seek out what you would want to train and how to structure that training to answer those business needs, whether it's profitability or security.
00:14:15:15 - 00:14:43:14
Yeah, I think so interesting, we're going to come and talk about the security angle, more intensives, where perhaps lack of training might being a real issue when it comes to security. But Rachel, tell me. So before we move on to those issues, in terms of the career part of it, I know that you feel quite passionately that you need to get involved in the same way as I would encourage, to be perfectly frank with you, anybody to really put themselves out there would be visible.
And I have to say that sometimes as women, I think that that's one of the things that we don't do as much, which I would encourage any woman listening to do more, Be yourself a bit more on a pedestal. I know, I know you feel there should be a broader awareness of training and that perhaps you need to get out there and to be more involved in the industry.
Is that right to summarize that well opportunity has to show.
00:15:04:12 - 00:15:37:15
Yeah. I mean, I just want to go back on a point. If anybody is listening about wanting to get into this role, there is a much broader spectrum which, you know, answers your question. It's not just about training people. There's a whole host of project management work, course development, all the learning technologies, side developing e learning and videos. And there's just so much, you know, looking after the learning management system reporting the role is very, very broad.
And I think it's important when you're in a law firm that your lecturing technology. But really to what Bonnie was saying is you're working with the business, you're working with the firm, you've got to know who your key stakeholders are in the business so they know what you can offer them and they will come to you and you get that dialog going.
Where does it matter, Rafe, of projects coming out with technology, coming out of finance, coming out of marketing, you're involved at the beginning and you get that seat at the table because they can see the value that you bring and also that ability to be able to roll out applications or systems to lawyers and staff because to Dorigen’s point is about speaking the language of the lawyers.
And, you know, if we look at technology, there's always that thing about the tech speak and it's two different languages and, you know, we translate that, we provide the context. So, you know, we provide that real world so that people can adopt those systems. So I think it's really important that you get yourself into that position where you become that go to person.
It also can help with client face work as well. We've had a couple of pieces internally in my firm that we've helped practice groups create content for external systems that our clients are using and that's been received so well and the cost savings from that rather than going out to an external person. And we've obviously just using the self-cost.
So, you know, it's really important as a training professional in legal that, you know, you can stay cold as our you communicate and you take the proactive approach rather than waiting for people to come to you, you get yourself out there.
00:17:25:02 - 00:17:28:16
So, it's like training clients to use that technology effectively.
00:17:28:17 - 00:17:44:18
Well, it was something that we developed through a client. So key to the content, we delivered some short videos and the means by the clients and it did win an award as well, but not enough.
00:17:44:18 - 00:18:09:05
So, I thought of instances where clients have actually requested help with their training from them, but also training team could they have one of their own? So it's an interesting area which is probably not exploited that much, but that may, if you're a smallish company and you don't have the skill and it's the way of the law firm Canadian Adesanya.
00:18:09:12 - 00:18:31:14
I'm hearing about this more and more and funnily enough discussed it on a different podcast that something is pulling increasingly within firms, legal operations teams. And so it's funny you add, but I think it's an interesting conversation maybe to go into more another time with you. But you know, I do think it's obviously something which is quite sticky and it helps, you know, the clients feel loved.
And if so, I do think it's an interesting one. But in terms of whether I think law firms should be teaching their clients how to use Word, but then, you know, I think obviously it could be something that really, you know, as I said, sticky. We've talked about security. There's so many firms who don't. I imagine you can all jump in at this point and agree, but don't spend enough on training.
It's interesting because they spend tons on software and tons of technology, a lot on people to implement them. And then I imagine that because people who was described as the weakest link, if you don't train people, you can spend all of the money on security that you like. If you don't spend enough time training the individuals not to do something stupid or how to actually use the technology in the first place so that they get value out of that.
You might as well promised to be deliberately if it was the perfect contentious just but you might as well not spend the money at all. Is that a fair assessment? Yeah.
00:19:23:19 - 00:19:43:12
I mean that's also a huge risk involved though. While you've spent the hundreds of thousands of dollars or pounds on the software, if people are using it, they should be that risk from a security point of view. And there's also a risk in just quality of documents and quality of work That's sent from that firm to the client.
So I think, yeah, I mean, there were machine implications. If you look the and are not using whatever technology for phishing.
00:19:52:17 - 00:20:24:12
I think one of the things, you know, we're inviting, you know, firms to invest lots of money in technology and firms are investing in training you know, they have training teams, they're investing in the training. But what I'm seeing is the uptake from the users. That's what you hear more, that they're not engaging with that training and have been talking about this, I think with Jo and Bonnie and others, is are firms actually giving people the capacity to learn because it's all right, you know, we're rolling out a new system.
This is, you know, the time investment and it's going to take you. But if you've got a really busy lawyer who's on a closing, anything to do with training will go to the bottom of that list. And you know, you've got lawyers potentially with burnout and at the end of the day, they may be want to go home and, you know, do something else, not have to log back on and do their IT training to catch up.
So I think there's a real question well you know, some more exploration, maybe not for today, but around, you know, us firms, are we giving people the capacity and that it is okay to take that time out to learn because you know, that short term pain is going to give you a much longer term gain.
Well, and I think that on Rachel's point, you know, with more and more firms trying to look at return on investment in terms of hard dollars when it comes to training, I think that ultimately that may start the conversation about doesn't it make sense to designate time or make a path for where that training can take place or a method?
I know one thing that LTC4 focused on early was defining core competencies and learning plans along the lines of workflows instead of features and functions, so that someone could more directly take the training and then actually do the technical job that they need to do. So I think, Rachel, when it comes to more firms looking at return on investment, I think you're absolutely right.
The next conversation is really going to be how to make a place for that training to take place in firms.
00:22:00:05 - 00:22:27:21
I do wonder there's been all sorts of talk about the progress. I mean, I've been writing about the legal sector since 2004 and we've been talking about the billable hour since then. Nothing has really changed. But I think recently there has been progress. I think that probably I mean, again, probably that's another deep dive. But, you know, as people move away from the billable hour more or find ways to create time, create capacity for people, I do think that that will make a difference.
00:22:27:21 - 00:22:37:04
I think at the moment, the culture of law firms is quite a struggle in terms of finding time for people to do anything other than billable hours. But whether that be pro-bono or training.
00:22:37:04 - 00:22:37:14
I think we've got. Our also part of the problem, isn't it? Because if you're if you rewarding incompetence in some ways, and I think this is where LTC4 made a stand and said, you know, actually what we need to do is prove the competence of our lawyers so that our clients don't think that we're charging them for our own lack of ability to use the products that we have.
And therefore taking three times as long to produce a document than they should do. So yeah, the billable hour is a challenge.
00:23:07:06 - 00:23:28:14
Before moving on, I'll give you a quick example, but I think what are the funny things that people have done and training that cost so much created so much time, take so much time that didn't need to be. So, I'll give you an example. I had a mentee who was actually brilliant, intimidating opinion actually at Tech, and she said to me she, her colleagues didn't know how to use control F.
And so they were going through and I know this is such a simple figure word, I don't know how often you come across this, but they were going through manually like thousands of pages and manually going through and reading through and finding this homework because they hadn't been shown how to use control F. And I was just like, Oh my God.
And there are lots of examples that you come across with firms and even be aware that their Chinese or their lawyers are doing these sorts of thing.
00:23:53:04 - 00:24:12:02
I think one of the most amazing things you can do is to actually be out on the floor talking to people. Of course, since you started working from home or that's become quite difficult. So we talk about virtual floor support now, sort of in other words, you know, you're able to see what people are doing, but you're doing it virtually.
But there are lots of things that people do that tape are too low and they would say matching. But, John, if they just spent half an hour learning that skill or spending half an hour with a trainer, with some law firms are doing individual consultation with people in their advocacy. And I would say making this of all the things that you struggle with and that result from that, because it is extraordinary how much time could be wasted.
Something like that is classic anywhere else.
00:24:40:03 - 00:24:59:01
Could be disasters. Before we come on, we're going to talk about positives. We could talk about competitive edge and best examples. But selfishly, I think you must just have loads. But if we can look to best examples of that you're seeing of where poems are perhaps gaining a competitive edge, do you think that being a day when in legal or when training won't be required?
We talk about the Apple effect. We talk about how we don't need training to use those sorts of things. Now, within the consumer world, does anyone think that we won't need training eventually, or do you think that day would ever come?
00:25:08:03 - 00:25:10:16
No, I don't need training.
00:25:10:16 - 00:25:34:04
I think training is ultimately going to go more in the direction of on demand. So, you need to do something. You click a button, it tells you how to do it. And I think part of that started even with the pandemic. People who didn't have immediate support couldn't go shout out and ask their legal assistance or whatever. I think training is going to lead more, not so much to not need it, but to have it more on demand.
Just think there will come a time because I just think training departments have to evolve and adapt. And I think this document, Automation AI, is letting this to so much coming that it will just will still need a human intervention. So people need to know how to do it. And that's still big business process and best practice.
00:25:53:10 - 00:25:54:08
So again, too.
00:25:54:08 - 00:26:16:03
To counter the Apple argument, Apple have billions in research dollars to be able to make their software and their programs as intuitive as they can be. Microsoft is in a similar way. The vendors within the legal industry do not have that level of investment in making things seamless and, you know, just easy to pick up use that doesn't exist.
We're so far away from that. It's not funny, but it may come in the future, but I don't see it in the next five years becoming anywhere near the level of matureness.
00:26:26:22 - 00:26:44:07
Yeah, and I actually think with Mike, of course, Microsoft has been INS, but Microsoft is the example I gave is Microsoft. And now let's quickly talk about examples of positive examples of training that you're seeing. Anyone can jump in. I know that Dorigen wanted to talk about. Alright and tell me a bit about that.
00:26:44:19 - 00:27:06:00
It's a difficult one when you're implementing software to demonstrate ROI because it's not easy to demonstrate. It sometimes is not, is not seen as a metric within the success factors of a project. So you can measure whether it's on time, whether it's on budget, whether it's to the specification that it's meant to be. But how do you measure whether it's been adopted properly?
And that challenge of not being able to easily measure ROI, I think is part of the downfall of it not being seen as something that you can you can easily judge a project by. And it's not because it's not tangible and he doesn't shout in your face when the project doesn't get those in that it's going to be a problem.
It's like a longer term issue with the software where you never actually realized your investment because the people just aren't using it in the way that it was designed to be. You saw that that you thought it was going to be used to start off with. I think it's a challenge for us all that we were in a meeting yesterday.
We were all talking about how do you demonstrate ROI? Because I think our industry needs to properly look at ourselves and find ways in which we can start to put these metrics around what we're doing and show the figures behind.
That's why LTC4 does - provide a method that can serve as a method of assessment at the end of each learning plan would actually lead to a certification.
But it also showed us that competence has been achieved. So delivering training is one thing, but actually proving competence at the end of it and that there had been a change in the way that person works. You know, it's important to measure it and that's not being done really before until two people came along. And that was my method of doing that.
That was standard. That was nice. The level at which training could be proved to have actually worked and made an effect.
00:28:29:17 - 00:28:42:18
So Rachel and Bonnie, just to wrap up, perhaps Rachel first and then Bonnie did that do you see with examples or not? Do you see firms training being used to provide a competitive edge and if so, how?
00:28:42:21 - 00:29:03:11
Well, I think those that are adopting the know I know it mentioned LTC4, but those are the ones that I've see as most successful when I'm listening to law firms and I hear a note from a lot of the law firms that they're able to put that in as a competitive advantage, you know, based on maybe other law firms that are not looking at proving efficiency and competency.
And I think those, you know, that train with context and then look at workflow based on the ones that are being successful, I think is Bonnie mentioned at the beginning. I mean, features and functions won out well over a decade ago. So, I wouldn't expect a law firm now to be training features and functions that would be looking at the workflows and teaching them to use technology to practice law.
00:29:28:02 - 00:29:30:13
Yeah, you know, I really think the competitive advantage has more to do with, with how a firm manages that business side and integrates training into their business decisions. You know, it can make them more efficient and it can make them more secure and they can certainly advertise to the external world, whether they do it through a certification or whether they simply make it clear that they embrace good technology practices in order to accomplish those business goals.
You know, that helps their clients look at the firm as good business people. You know, they run their own business well, they run their own business well. They're certainly going to provide better support to their clients from that standpoint. And it's proving ROI as Dorigen has said can be a challenge and it can be hard to tie that to an actual number.
But any firm that really embraces addressing those business and security needs and can prove it has a business advantage.
00:30:32:09 - 00:30:54:01
Yeah, well, I hope eventually will go the US route and we'll have some kind of neat, necessary accreditation as they do in many of the states. But for now, we can we can dream in the UK, but we're out of time. I really appreciate all of your thoughts and insights. So Jo, Rachel, Bonny Dorigen, thank you so much and hopefully will get to speak about training again soon.
00:30:54:14 - 00:30:57:12
Thank you. Thank you.
00:30:57:12 - 00:31:03:05
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